Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

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Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by LifeIsWorthLiving on 2012-03-01, 10:46

I was attached very much to Rin's route in KS. So attached in fact, that I put off playing the other routes for a month.

Rin probably has either Asperger's Syndrome or, more probably, Schizoid Personality Disorder.

But not once was this mentioned in game. I think the beauty of her route lies in that, the devs, the writers, didn't make her disorder an issue at all. None of Hisao's internal monologues had thoughts like: "she's different from other girls but I still like her" or "I can make this work even if she's like that." Rin was never potrayed as being "like that." She was never different or mentally handicapped in Hisao's eyes, and neither was she to us. Her personality was not something he had to overcome; it was something he had to accept. In fact, I think her peculiarity was what made me fall for her in the first place.

TL;DR To the writers, I've read the forums and I know you won't disappoint, but please don't make their hobbies or VN-girl-archetypes the reason I fall in love with the heroines of MS, with their mental disorders something I just have to overcome; build them around their disabilities, and show the world that her disorder is what makes her beautiful.


I just wanted to get this out there. I've read posts from the dev team, and I'm sure this game will be good no matter what.



ps. I have mild aspergers and the concept of this game really hit home for me. good luck making this game. Smile


Last edited by LifeIsWorthLiving on 2012-03-01, 11:52; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by TheLastMelody on 2012-03-01, 10:51

LifeIsWorthLiving wrote:I was attached very much to Rin's route in KS. So attached in fact, that I put off playing the other routes for a month.

Rin probably has either Asperger's Syndrome or, more probably, Schizoid Personality Disorder.

But not once was this mentioned in game. I think the beauty of her route lies in that, the devs, the writers, didn't make her disorder an issue at all. None of Hisao's internal monologues had thoughts like: "she's different from other girls but I still like her" or "I can make this work even if she's like that." Rin was never potrayed as being "like that." She was never different or mentally handicapped in Hisao's eyes, and neither was she to us. Her personality was not something he had to overcome; it was something he had to accept. In fact, I think her peculiarity was what made me fall for her in the first place.

TL;DR To the writers, I've read the forums and I know you won't disappoint, but please don't make their hobbies or VN-girl-archetypes the reason I fall in love with the heroines of MS, with their mental disorders something I just have to overcome; build them around their disabilities, and show the world that her disorder is what makes her beautiful.


I just wanted to get this out there. I've read posts from the dev team, and I'm sure this game will be good no matter what.

ps. I have mild aspergers.
^That guy, knows what he's talking about. Rin is THE <input-something-here>
However, don't go expecting something like Rin to happen in this. Everything about this project is different, so keep that in mind and do not let KS affect your expectations for this VN.

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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by MDV on 2012-03-01, 11:00

ps. I have mild aspergers and the concept of this game really hit home. good luck to the team.
Is it really possible to have mild asperger's? I always thought it was something you either have or have not and it can't be measured 'how much' asperger's one has. Or at least, that's what I was always told.

I'm not sure if we should want to avoid emphasizing the MS girls' mental disabilities. Therapists feed them pills for a reason, they've been shunned from the outside world and sent to a special school for a reason. That reason is their mental disabilty, and without a doubt, their disabilities will play a big role in their life and personality. Writing around the girls' disorders would be ignoring a huge elaphant in the room.
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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by LifeIsWorthLiving on 2012-03-01, 11:34

MDV wrote:
ps. I have mild aspergers and the concept of this game really hit home. good luck to the team.
Is it really possible to have mild asperger's? I always thought it was something you either have or have not and it can't be measured 'how much' asperger's one has. Or at least, that's what I was always told.

I'm not sure if we should want to avoid emphasizing the MS girls' mental disabilities. Therapists feed them pills for a reason, they've been shunned from the outside world and sent to a special school for a reason. That reason is their mental disabilty, and without a doubt, their disabilities will play a big role in their life and personality. Writing around the girls' disorders would be ignoring a huge elaphant in the room.

No, I do not want the writers to ignore their disorders. The challenge, I think, is to write the story without shoving it in our face like it was something ugly.

I know I really shouldn't compare this with KS. But KS was amazing in that it showed the world that being physically disabled can actually be beautiful. I liked Emi because of her bubbly and cheerful attitude, I fell in love with Emi because she didn't let her disability be a handicap, but rather it was what made her a stronger person.

Can someone's mental disorder be what makes them beautiful? I'm really hoping this VN can deliver.


Last edited by LifeIsWorthLiving on 2012-03-01, 11:48; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by Genero6 on 2012-03-01, 11:43

MDV wrote:Is it really possible to have mild asperger's? I always thought it was something you either have or have not and it can't be measured 'how much' asperger's one has. Or at least, that's what I was always told.
I wouldn't really say that there are different grades as such, so one person could have 25% Aspergers while another is Super Aspie, but different people do suffer the characteristics to different degrees. Life experiences can also affect how people deal with the characteristics, so someone could naturally cover for some aspects while others are accentuated. I also often describe myself as having mild Aspergers as I've seen others who much more obviously fit the characteristics while many of my issues are caused by depression, but I do acknowledge that this is just the way I see it, others probably see me as equally weird.
'course, some people seem outright against the concept of grading the condition, and simply say that everybody has Autism and we just need to learn that every sufferer of Autism is unique and needs to be treated in their own individual way. Good luck with that.

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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by MDV on 2012-03-01, 11:49

course, some people seem outright against the concept of grading the condition, and simply say that everybody has Autism and we just need to learn that every sufferer of Autism is unique and needs to be treated in their own individual way
This is the part where therapists and other people who help for mentally disabled people lack. Too often, they treat their patients as templates, treating them like they were taught in the books. They don't care for the person at all, they just diagnose and drug people.
I personally don't believe in grading autism, but I'll be the first to admit the disorder works different for anyone and different people will have to find different solutions for their problems.
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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by Genero6 on 2012-03-01, 12:07

Some people are like that, but there are still plenty of people in the support services who honestly do treat people a individuals (that might be because there's no simple drug to give us), going to the other extreme just isn't a perfect solution either. It works for people actually in the system and working with individual patients and clients, but a general population of millions isn't going to consider the needs of thousands of people along the spectrum individually. If they did we wouldn't need the Autism label at all, so I'm perfectly happy to be considered as having Aspergers while someone else is considered as having Autism and getting the extra general support from society that they need.

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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by MDV on 2012-03-01, 12:16

Genero6 wrote:Some people are like that, but there are still plenty of people in the support services who honestly do treat people a individuals (that might be because there's no simple drug to give us), going to the other extreme just isn't a perfect solution either. It works for people actually in the system and working with individual patients and clients, but a general population of millions isn't going to consider the needs of thousands of people along the spectrum individually. If they did we wouldn't need the Autism label at all, so I'm perfectly happy to be considered as having Aspergers while someone else is considered as having Autism and getting the extra general support from society that they need.
I have no problems with diagnosing people with autism, asperger's or whatever mental disorder, these things are real. I just don't believe in gradations. I don't think considering conditions as well as individual factors isn't extreme at all. Diagnosing someone with a certain disorder and start applying the prefabricated protocol right away without considering the individual at all is what sounds extreme to me.
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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by Sephiru on 2012-03-01, 13:25

I've always detested such labels, admittedly with much bias, because I was neither got along with my family nor was I understood by them. Instead of saying I was unique or strange, I was toted to the psychiatrist and stuck with the label of several mental disorders. The thing is, I wouldn't agree that I have them, and we live in a world where people can group together everyone with the same personality, write a book about it, sell medicine, and make money. If someone genuinely has a problem and seeks help, that's commendable; however, children can easily be conditioned into believing something is wrong with them when there is not. Symptoms for diagnosis are extremely vague, and you can be labeled with a disorder just because your parent answers seemingly unrelated questions concerning an enormous range of symptoms. You could diagnose someone with almost anything if you gave it a wide enough berth.
And yet, that is precisely why this project excites me: I've had such a negative experience with diagnostic psychology that I really want to see a story where it is applied to someone in a way that helps them and makes them more comfortable in their accommodation or treatment. Rin was not given a label: she was just Rin. I don't want to be ADD ODD Aspie Depressed Girl either. I'm not depressed and I don't have social problems; I'm just me. So if this project can pull off the perspective of someone who genuinely accepts her label as a legitimate disability while managing to accept herself and not characterize herself with it exclusively, maybe I'll have the courage to do the same, and be more open to support from people who want to give it to me, even if they want to throw in a label I don't necessarily want on the side.
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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by Genero6 on 2012-03-01, 13:32

MDV wrote:
I have no problems with diagnosing people with autism, asperger's or whatever mental disorder, these things are real. I just don't believe in gradations. I don't think considering conditions as well as individual factors isn't extreme at all. Diagnosing someone with a certain disorder and start applying the prefabricated protocol right away without considering the individual at all is what sounds extreme to me.
That's all cool, it's just some people out there tend to bug me by refusing to accept the term 'aspergers' in any context at all, even in casual, non-specific conversation. Their intentions are good, it just crosses into wishful thinking. People in the support services need to consider individual cases, people outside the support services should consider individual cases but reality is they're not always going to and actively trying to lump high-functioning and low-functioning conditions together won't necessarily force the public to handle people individually.

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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by TheLastMelody on 2012-03-01, 15:48

Sephiru wrote:I've always detested such labels, admittedly with much bias, because I was neither got along with my family nor was I understood by them. Instead of saying I was unique or strange, I was toted to the psychiatrist and stuck with the label of several mental disorders. The thing is, I wouldn't agree that I have them, and we live in a world where people can group together everyone with the same personality, write a book about it, sell medicine, and make money. If someone genuinely has a problem and seeks help, that's commendable; however, children can easily be conditioned into believing something is wrong with them when there is not. Symptoms for diagnosis are extremely vague, and you can be labeled with a disorder just because your parent answers seemingly unrelated questions concerning an enormous range of symptoms. You could diagnose someone with almost anything if you gave it a wide enough berth.
And yet, that is precisely why this project excites me: I've had such a negative experience with diagnostic psychology that I really want to see a story where it is applied to someone in a way that helps them and makes them more comfortable in their accommodation or treatment. Rin was not given a label: she was just Rin. I don't want to be ADD ODD Aspie Depressed Girl either. I'm not depressed and I don't have social problems; I'm just me. So if this project can pull off the perspective of someone who genuinely accepts her label as a legitimate disability while managing to accept herself and not characterize herself with it exclusively, maybe I'll have the courage to do the same, and be more open to support from people who want to give it to me, even if they want to throw in a label I don't necessarily want on the side.
WHOA, you're like, me.
You sound exactly as I do, just a bit different wording.

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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by LifeIsWorthLiving on 2012-03-01, 20:15

Sephiru wrote:I've always detested such labels, admittedly with much bias, because I was neither got along with my family nor was I understood by them. Instead of saying I was unique or strange, I was toted to the psychiatrist and stuck with the label of several mental disorders. The thing is, I wouldn't agree that I have them, and we live in a world where people can group together everyone with the same personality, write a book about it, sell medicine, and make money. If someone genuinely has a problem and seeks help, that's commendable; however, children can easily be conditioned into believing something is wrong with them when there is not. Symptoms for diagnosis are extremely vague, and you can be labeled with a disorder just because your parent answers seemingly unrelated questions concerning an enormous range of symptoms. You could diagnose someone with almost anything if you gave it a wide enough berth.
And yet, that is precisely why this project excites me: I've had such a negative experience with diagnostic psychology that I really want to see a story where it is applied to someone in a way that helps them and makes them more comfortable in their accommodation or treatment. Rin was not given a label: she was just Rin. I don't want to be ADD ODD Aspie Depressed Girl either. I'm not depressed and I don't have social problems; I'm just me. So if this project can pull off the perspective of someone who genuinely accepts her label as a legitimate disability while managing to accept herself and not characterize herself with it exclusively, maybe I'll have the courage to do the same, and be more open to support from people who want to give it to me, even if they want to throw in a label I don't necessarily want on the side.

^This. Would make a great heroine.
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Re: Rin Tezuka set the bar high for this game

Post by Malkav on 2012-03-01, 23:42

I do not mind labels, in of themselves. Nor do I mind gradations of labels. For some things, they are extraordinarily useful. And I don't think that, when people speak ill of these things, they are really focused on the labels and gradations, in of themselves. Rather, I would venture to say that most of you more specifically dislike the side-effects that come along with these things: hasty generalizations and the psychological transformation of people into statistics. Labels and gradations are good things, but only if used for the right reasons. Far too often, I think that these things (as many things in humanity) are taken advantage of and corrupted to suit the needs of one or several individuals.

I think proper labels are important because the very basis of living and interacting involves labels. We identify things with labels that describe them because of the existence of other identical/similar things whose only major difference is being a separate physical entity (different kinds of apples--or even separate apples within the same species--that are still apples). Similarly, gradations are important because some labels are anything but black-and-white. Nowhere is this more apparent than in the human mind. We are not simply placid or energetic. We aren't just compassionate or ruthless. And we certainly cannot say that we are either honest or deceitful. There is almost always a measure of extent to which these things exist in each of us, and we inevitably take into account how much of each of these things a person has when evaluating their behavior or otherwise interacting with them. Psychological diagnoses, I think, were simply meant to be abbreviations for what would otherwise have been a long list of character trait descriptions (though again, these have been and still are misused for less than noble purposes).

Having said all of that, I agree completely with the following sentiment: part of what made KS so great was that the characters possessed DEPTH. Certainly, society would assign them a Master Status of "deaf-mute" or "armless/legless", but the characters showed that these parts of them were just that: PARTS. Not the whole. And pointing out Rin's blatantly unorthodox personality showcases this perfectly. Yes, her obvious "disability" was having no arms, and her obvious "talent" art. But there was so much more put into her character than just that. And it made her real. Just as Shizune's abrasive personality mixed with child-like intentions of good will made HER real. Just as Hanako's PTSD and intelligence fleshed her into a PERSON, and not just a character.

The KS devs accomplished nothing insignificant when they birthed conceptual girls who, in any other written book, could very well have existed. And I share the same wish and hope of everyone else in this thread that the MS devs can accomplish that very same thing with their own project.

TL;DR: Labels get a bad rep because people misuse them, but I otherwise get (and share) what everyone posting in this thread feels.
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